Short of the Glory
Welcome to Short of the Glory! We're just two cousins talkin' trash about televangelism and the like. Join us on our journey to better understand evangelicalism in America: the big names, the big institutions, and the deep pockets.
Short of the Glory
32: And We Back
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Your two favorite heathens are back. After a long awaited break, Madie & Ellen are back for a fourth season of Short of the Glory. On today’s episode we do a brief catch up to talk about *gestures around* and give you a sneak peak in our upcoming season. May this episode bless you and keep you.
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The moral condition of America as of any nature is a reflection of the spiritual condition of the church. There are demons, and they have the power to blind your mind to spiritual things. They got together and tore a fact of the devil. I can't be a big blessing to people from porn, bro. And we're so thankful that God has forgiven us. I am now recording.
SPEAKER_00Nothing like a throat clearing right at the beginning.
SPEAKER_01It's actually so good we're recording this week because last week I got sick.
SPEAKER_00I've been sick the entire month of April. What's up with that? Well, you know, I have reasons.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's true. You have a baby. You have a baby. Oh my god, we're recording, and I spoiled your news.
SPEAKER_00It's okay. Um, let's reintroduce ourselves and then we can get into it.
SPEAKER_01Let's do it. I'm Maddie.
SPEAKER_00Hi, Maddie. Where are you, Maddie?
SPEAKER_01I'm in Chicago.
SPEAKER_00Nice to see you. I'm Ellen. I'm in Minneapolis. And we took a long hiatus from recording. Yeah. Why was that, Ellen? Well, I uh if you listen to the last time or the last season that we did, I was going through IVF and it was successful. My like third round or so. I guess it was my third retrieval. And I'm now the proud and happy parent to a 14-month-old boy. Wow. Who is my little Petri dish. He brings all the germs home and gets me very sick, but he's wonderful. And yeah, I'm glad we didn't record during pregnancy because I'll be honest, it's we're recording right now at seven o'clock on a Tuesday, and I would have been probably in REM cycle. So not that that's like changed much as a new parent. It hasn't.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, you were cultivating life, so that makes sense the early bedtime.
SPEAKER_00I mean, now it's just because I'm like, what else am I gonna do? He's asleep. I'm not gonna stay up and like watch TV because I'm too tired. You know, that's what's new with me the last time we did an episode. So lots of changes over here, good changes. Um, but what's new in your world, Maddie?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I am trying to remember what I said at the end of our last episode. That's fair. Um and I think I was about to start my internship, which is crazy because now I'm currently a licensed therapist in the state of Illinois. Whoop, whoop, whoop. Yeah, it's been really lovely. It's a weird and hard job, but one that I genuinely like. Though I will say, yeah, I don't need actually, never mind. No, get into it. Well, sometimes sometimes I I talk with my clients about work and they're beef with work, and I go, yeah, nobody likes their job. And then I go, except for me. You go, I've done the corporate thing and now I don't. Yeah. Uh no, I I do like it. Um, I also have a number of lovely hobbies that I've been trying to incorporate in life so that my life is not just work. I also had this new idea of part of my own self-care, I think, is going to be like watching a very sad movie or television episode and just letting myself rock and roll with tears.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Um next time we're together, I think we should watch the documentary Dear Zachary.
SPEAKER_01Have you watched it? Like a decade ago. Okay. See, I've never watched it. Well, wait.
SPEAKER_00And there's just never like it's kind of like Schindler's List. There's never a good time.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I am ready to be hurt again. I'll watch it. Okay. Well, I was gonna say, if you haven't watched, is it episode two or episode three of the first season of Last of Us? It's like a little vignette episode with Nick Offerman. Beautiful, one of the most beautiful episodes of a television show ever. Will break your heart, but like so wonderful. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Say it like five times. Yeah, taking submissions for very sad things that will make me cry because I just gotta let it out.
SPEAKER_00I I mean, I felt that way. Uh, so like we said, Maddie's in Chicago, I'm in Minneapolis. We're recording this in May. Obviously, Minneapolis has been in the news a lot this uh decade, and this winter was no different. Um, I had actually taken a leave because I uh because of when my baby was born, I qualified for more paid leave in the new year. And so it worked out well that I was home during the time of Operation Metro Surge with IC, uh, who were very much involved in our surrounding area in South Minneapolis. Um, but because of that, I feel like I was just like in fight or flight, maybe, or like freeze, just like couldn't feel emotion because you're just going through day to day. Yeah. And so I went to see Hamnet by myself after doing some acupunctures so I could feel sadness.
SPEAKER_01A wild choice for a mom to watch that, but you go girl. You know what?
SPEAKER_00I'm glad I saw it. And Jesse Buckley, is that the actress? Phenomenal. I'd watch her in anything, truly. She won the Oscar. As she should have. I I think that was the only movie I had seen that was nominated this year. So like in time for the Oscars, but I get it. I yeah, I I mean, it's kind of like when fall time comes, you're like, I want that melancholy, I want those sad songs, I want that Sufi and Stevens, that Simon and Garfunkel, Fleet Foxes, Fleet Foxes, Bonnie Bear, etc. Tegan and Sarah, whatever your flavor is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I mean, all that to say, well, I mean, you bring up a good like point as well, just the things going on in this time and age is a weird and very emotional time for both the therapists and the human beings of the land.
SPEAKER_00Like, what is your advice to clients that come to you looking for ways to cope with what's going on in the world right now?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I mean, the first thing I think is just way less intake of information, both good and bad, but especially like thinking about, you know, a high-end view, the fact that it is so accessible for us to watch human beings inflict harm on one another and then also see like a funny video seconds later. Not really great for our brains. Um so giving yourself a little space for that, um, and be sad. Obviously, be sad um and let yourself cry if you need to. And I mean, an old Fred Rogers, look for the people that are helping. Like the helpers exist. I think, especially at the federal level, that's not the time. This is not the space to be looking for the helpers, but you're not wrong. In our communities, in the places that we are living, at local leaders, like those are the people who are doing the fucking work, and that's where you find hope for sure. The people in Wisconsin that like took down a data center that they wanted to put up, the um local organization in both Minneapolis and Chicago to just do ice watches, delivering groceries, like that's that's the beautiful stuff that gets us through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I passed by Renee Good's memorial on my way home from work, and she's only a couple years, not even, she's like a year older than me. And I think passing that while it is sad, it's also a reminder of like yeah, it's our fucking generation that are the future, and we're gonna fight for something better, and that gives me hope. That's the reason why, like, as much as we tried to have a child when Trump wasn't president, that just wasn't in the cards for us. Um and he's our investment in the future, and so like we gotta be part of shaping how we want the world to be for him and for you know our nieces and nephews. You also forgot some key important information, Maddie.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes, one other I was just ready to get to the meat of it. But yes, one other major update in my life is I am um an auntie to my sister's son. Yeah. Uh he's the best and the cutest, and I love him the most. Um, light of my life. He's one now, which is just absolutely insane. Yeah, yeah. And he's just got like the cutest, chunkiest little legs. Yeah. And like his arms too, they go crazy.
SPEAKER_00They are full croissant arms. Yeah, he is a croissant. I feel like compared to Oscar, Oscar's a biscuit. Like he's got some role, but like he's also like, I need to move. And yeah. Yeah. Um, but baby, baby boy, you're I don't know if we're saying names, but Oscar's pseudo cousin sort of is uh very cute, and it's cute that they're going to be close in age. So I love that. I love that. It makes being far away very hard. Yeah. Do we want to talk about the possibility of you moving back?
SPEAKER_01We don't have to. Not on the pod, but uh that's fair. Yes, someday. Yeah. Someday.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, um, a lot has changed, but like since we started, did we start this podcast after Trump's first term ended? I think so. Okay.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, like shit. It's bad. It's it's pretty bad predicted, but like worse. Then I guess like when your expectations are in hell, like this probably meets it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I think this is a lot of like the first term, 2016 era, was bad. Like we were, you know, there were lawyers in the airports, and we thought the post office was gonna not have any money. But I do think this is the nightmare we feared the first time around, like over like a decade ago when Trump was initially elected. Yeah. Because I I think a lot of the stuff that is happening now is very scary. But the place that I try not to spend too much time thinking is what so much of this defunding means for the future, especially in terms of like medical research and investment, stuff like that is like it's it's hard not to sound like an alarmist or conspiracy theorist, but these types of things, the the last year that we've been existing in sets up not only, you know, Supreme Court precedents, um, but also just like rebuilding stuff is much, much harder than it is to tear something down, which is it's just been tearing stuff down over and over again. We've been putting dynamite to everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so indiscriminately. Um so while we could dwell on that, we aren't technically a political podcast. Right. But it is closely related to what we do discuss, which is usually uh I mean, should we just say what call it what it is? Christian nationalism. Like kind of what we were skirting around, but I think it's fair for us to say like that's a lot of the people that we talk about are folks that have supported him and are writing, riding hard for him, you know, going to like that gold statue ceremony of him. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's yeah, it's hard to like really square this I the label of Christianity that I have known my whole life with the things I see now. And I do think there are some cracks in the foundation, but it does feel like many groups of Christians were will have to kind of reckon with the fact that regardless of who they are and how they practice, that title has been like taken and tarnished and utilized to inflict such great harm um over swaths of different people.
SPEAKER_00In your studies, did any of your courses talk about like cult deprogramming? No what that looks like. I'm s I'd be so curious, and maybe we need to have an expert on, because I'm like that's ultimately what is gonna have to happen unless you know people I'm it's starting. Like there's bits and pieces here and there, but like how do you separate people who have bought into this idea for so long and now they're seeing it hit their pocketbook, which people had been saying it was gonna happen, but you know not until it affects people directly are they gonna believe that things are bad. Like I don't know. I'm curious what that looks like in the future, and I've usually been an optimist about the future, and I want to continue that, but it is hard, which is why I don't really read the news all that frequently.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, I mean, I think kind of similar to not that I'm the expert on anything, but I do think a lot of that deprogramming happens in very small and simple ways. I just I have a hard time believing, as optimistic and hopeful as I try to be as well, that change will happen soon over like at a national level. Like I don't imagine that conversation, but I do think there are opportunities in small ways for people to pivot. And there, I mean, I've gotten a little interested in um some of the literature around um spiritual trauma and like um like religious trauma. That is a whole, I mean, probably within that is probably some cult stuff as well, but just kind of helping people restory a lot of the narratives that they grew up with because so much about um Christian faith can be used to perpetuate like people holding a lot of shame. Um, there's a whole specific subtype of OCD that is associated with r religion and scrupulosity.
SPEAKER_00Um tough word to say, but um I tried to say compartment the other day, and I was like, oh god, compartment.
SPEAKER_01Um but yeah, I I it's something that happens in small waves, though I'm like, what's that momdanny up to out in New York? And is he gonna, you know, run a class for other people to like learn from him?
SPEAKER_00I mean, not to get on my Minnesota soapbox, which I'm always happy to get up on, but part of why Tim Walls and Peggy Flanagan are lieutenant governor, who's also running for Senate right now, part of what made them successful in the state is that they were part of the Paul Wellstone training that was here. I think it was the Wellstone Institute. Paul Wellstone was a former senator. If you don't know Paul Wellstone's story, he opposed the Iraq War. Um he unfortunately died in a really tragic plane accident at a very pivotal time in our country, like right after September 11th. And I I feel like our country would have been div different had he survived. Now, of course, I feel that way as a Minnesotan, because he was our senator, and I feel like he was this sort of magical political person, but he was also a very progressive candidate and is um sort of a model of what I feel the Democratic Party should be. But again, that's a rabbit hole we don't need to go down. Um I do think there are groups that are trying to push that. It's just how do you get buy-in when everything is a game of money and needing to have corporate backers, which yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember I was like, we're not gonna talk politics, we'll just go down the rabbit hole a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Um, it's hard. I mean, how do you talk about like being a human in the last year and a half without, you know, right talking about a little bit? And as you said, so much of what the people that we have talked about have dipped their toe or up to torso in politics and have so much like shaped on how we've gotten to this place, which is why we're we're bringing this shit back.
SPEAKER_00Kinda. Yes. Yep. It's oh my gosh, I had something I wanted to bring up and now I'm forgetting what it was, where I was like, it's interesting to live in a time where these two things exist, where like we can have same-sex couples be celebrated on TV, or like have um really progressive things in the media, and yet have uh people in positions of political power basically tell women that their only worth is having children and that we need to have more babies, and that that's all that they're good for. Like it's it's crazy to me that we are living in a time where both of those things are coexisting. But I suppose with any progress, as you move forward, there are steps that are taken to move backwards out of like resistance. Totally, yeah. Which is I feel like it's not just like a little bit of resistance right now, like we're a bit of a mudslide.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. We got that sisyfician uh stone we're pushing.
SPEAKER_00Oh god.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But people are gonna die. Um I mean like old politicians. Yeah. Like time will father time will come for them.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. As much as the billionaires are trying to buy their son's blood and live forever, death comes for us all. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, on that note, I'm just kidding. Um, there is a lost episode. It's not lost, we have it, but Maddie and I did record an episode talking about Project 2025. I don't think we need to talk about it now because we're living it. Yeah, we're gonna. But no, that we were gonna do a podcast about it, but to Maddie's point, usually it's like so many people have talked about this where this is like their area of expertise, and we are but interested ladies talking about things that well, Maddie has way more qualifications to talk about any of this than I do. I just have opinions. Um, so we're not gonna ever publish that, but uh we're seeing it happen in real time, and it's unfortunate that folks didn't believe that the manual was going to be the manual that he actually uses.
SPEAKER_01Right. Yeah, that he's literally there's um for those interested, there is a website of a dedicated individual who is tracking step by step each of the things in Project 2025 and indicating if they have or haven't happened and referencing the specific um like ordinance or law or motion or executive order. It's crazy. It's awesome. I love it. I love it.
SPEAKER_00It's so fun, it's so fun. So, how are we gonna stay positive uh moving forward? Uh, this episode is just sort of a catch up. We're not gonna talk about a specific person or group or weird Christianity thing, but we will in the future. And we're gonna try and keep it lighthearted and maybe talk about some good people from the past or present. I'd have to look at the list you sent me again. Um Know that whatever we put out is gonna be a silly good time filled with dumb facts because we need some lightness in the dark and I feel like punching up. Is it uh punching up at this point, or are we punching down? I don't know anymore. Like I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I do think about how many times I've called um people ugly on this show, and I don't know which direction that's punching, but I'm like, I think I'm allowed, I'm allowed to do that, even though I am somebody's therapist now.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, no, I think you're being an honest therapist. And I think if they're ugly ugly people who steal from vulnerable folks, I don't I don't see anything. Being ugly is the least of their problems. For sure. They're just a bad person. Yeah. A bad person grifting as if they're a good person. Right. Ew. So speaking of griffs, uh, next episode, we are gonna talk about the Hallow app pedaled by Gwen Stefani and apparently Liam Neeson and Mark Wahlberg. Which, like, what a grab bag of random people. Yeah. Um, I didn't really know much about it, so I did a little searching. I didn't realize the CEO's name is Alex Jones, not the one you're gonna think of. Right. This guy is like 3334. Um maybe he should have like put his middle name since Alex Jones is like a very well-known person whose website was just bought by the Onion.
SPEAKER_01Yes, oh my gosh. And I'm getting so many like Tim Heideker videos of him doing his Alex Jones impression. Very good, very good. I love it.
SPEAKER_00Fantastic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but the the hope is that this season is a little bit more whimsical, both with as we critique things that are like not so serious, and like highlight a couple of like beautiful, lovely Christians in history and some of the ways that like Christian communities have shown up in the last nine months, especially. Absolutely, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Especially in Minneapolis, shout out to is it Isaiah? Hmm, I don't know. I should look this up. There's a group of um, you know what? I'm just not even gonna get into it, but just shout out to the people in Minneapolis just writing for their neighbors. It was amazing to see, and the fight continues. We're not done. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Shout out to all the community organizers. Holy cow, what a hard job. Primarily women, like shout out. Yeah, yeah. Uh, I did a couple of school watches, and I'll say every time I went was either women or were uh femme identifying folks, femme presenting. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So well, what are you gonna do before next episode to help take care of your mental health in this period of time?
SPEAKER_01I am working on crocheting a rug out of scrap t-shirts and yarn. So I'm gonna keep working on that and hopefully have something fun to show Ellen and describe to the listener.
SPEAKER_00I want to know more. Um that's actually really fascinating because I've heard of like Plarn, like plastic yarn when you use like plastic bags. Is it similar but with t-shirts? Um, kind of.
SPEAKER_01I can show you um when we're done.
SPEAKER_00Okay. I'm excited about this.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. What about you?
SPEAKER_00What are you doing for your mental health? Um, my therapist told me that I needed to read fourth wing. I don't know what that says about my therapist. Shout out to her. I don't think she listens, but like she's great. Imagine. Um, she got me through IVF and pregnancy and postpartum. Um, yeah, she told me I should read Fourth Wing. She's like, I just feel like you'd really enjoy the characters. And she she's not wrong. Um, I devoured the first book. I'm halfway through the second. I'll probably read the third like next week. It's been a nice distraction. And then getting out more. I know you and my husband have talked about this, but the birds have returned. Yeah. And getting to hear the birds and then look over at my husband with his Merlin app open and tell me which birds are out, singing their little songs has been a joy and a treat.
SPEAKER_01If you are interested in getting into birding, getting the Merlin app is the gateway because it's just a little treasure hunt. It's just a little it's just a little sample.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00It's like Pokemon Go, but like with real things. Yes, totally.
SPEAKER_01It's amazing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And if you are a member of the Hennepin County Library, there are free resources for ornithology. Is that the full name of bird studying? Yeah. Where you it's like, I want to say it's from like Columbia, the university. Um I might be getting that wrong, but it's like a whole website about birds, and it is pretty amazing. I love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So everybody get outside. Just go on a leave your phone at home and go on a walk with a friend.
SPEAKER_00Breathe air that's not in your house.
SPEAKER_01And then you're doing stuff with friends. Yeah. Community. Yes, community. Community, coffee outside, hang out, be chill. Screamless nights with friends, as Caleb Heron said on his podcast earlier this year. Oh, that's what he's peddling for 2026.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's all I got. Yeah. Well, looking forward to season five, four. I honestly don't even know. I don't either. Um, and thank you.
SPEAKER_00Looking forward to this season. Looking forward to this season.
SPEAKER_01We'll know by the next episode. Yeah, we'll have it down bat. Um, yeah. Peace be with you, Ellen.
SPEAKER_00And also with you, Maddie. Bye.