Short of the Glory
Welcome to Short of the Glory! We're just two cousins talkin' trash about televangelism and the like. Join us on our journey to better understand evangelicalism in America: the big names, the big institutions, and the deep pockets.
Short of the Glory
34: Douglas Wilson - God's Mayor
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Today we talk about what is going on in Moscow Idaho and the man behind what is unfolding there; Douglas Wilson. We talk real estate, weird old colleges, and more on today’s episode.
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The moral condition of America as of any nature is a reflection of the spiritual condition. There are demons, and they have the power to blind your mind to spiritual things. In the name of Jesus, you get back up where you got together and for a fact of the devil.
SPEAKER_00That's terrified. And we're so thankful that God has forgiven us.
SPEAKER_03Recording in the living room today because Ryan is having a boys' weekend in Milwaukee. So it's just me and the kitties. Um, what are they doing on this boys' weekend? They went to the beach today and then they were gonna go to a tiki bar tonight. And I think golf tomorrow. So no baseball game, huh? No. We did go to a baseball game in Milwaukee a couple weeks ago. It was pretty fun. Nice. Very car-centered culture. Um, very different than going to a baseball game in Chicago. Like the brewers themselves are car-centered? Well, so we tailgated before, and I sort of forget what parking lots are like at the end of sporting events.
SPEAKER_02Because you live in Chicago and you have public transportation that's reliable.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Jealous. And so, yeah, it was very jarring. And it's when I do go home to Minnesota, it does feel very jarring how much time we spend in the car. Yeah. It is very crazy. But anyway.
SPEAKER_02For all of the wonderful things about here, I I wish we had better public transportation. We keep trying, but it's a uphill battle.
SPEAKER_03Someday.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Maybe when I'm dead. Maybe 2040, 2050. If you know things are still around. Yeah, if the earth is what it is. But uh, how was your last couple weeks? The last couple weeks were good. Um, Dan and I went to the World Cup in Kansas City. We got to go with some college friends that live there. It was really fun. Um I obviously like being amongst an international crowd who are passionate about their countries is like a really cool thing to be part of. And I'm I came back a little bit envious, of course. Because I'm like, I wish I had that passion. Um yeah. Um, we went to the Algeria-Austria game and ended up being really great. Both teams were happy in the end, which you know, uh name a sporting event where that happens. Um yeah. So yeah, fascinating. It was great.
SPEAKER_03Oh, I hear a kitty. Oh, I'm like a peril of recording in the living room, is we have some guests. Just lay down. Which little kitten was making themselves known? That's Kedzy. Little orange guy. He's he's very silly. Is he your favorite? Well, I kind of by default because Miso prefers Ryan. Um, and I don't want to hear any discourse about how I'm a white person naming my cat after Asian food. I know that's like a thing on TikTok, and I'm not interested in it. Um but yeah.
SPEAKER_02Did you name him Miso or did he come with that name? I named him that. Okay. You know what? I asked Dan today if we should name a dog Baromew, and he said yes. So I'm not one to judge. I like it.
SPEAKER_03I just think like I get it. And people name cats like Tangerine and Hot Dog and Dominic. So it's just, could we we must care less about each other?
SPEAKER_02We must. Just like we must know less about each other, I say into a microphone that I'm about to publish as a podcast episode. But yeah, there was something else I wanted to say about the World Cup, but it's slipping my mind. It's slipping through my fingers. I did see, um, as we were driving to the stadium, one of our friends was like, Oh, you should talk about this church that's here in Kansas City. People think it's a cult. And I was like, I will add that to the long list. So I gotta look it up. But they did have like a whole property, which I'm call me intrigued. Always.
SPEAKER_03I love a a religious uh sect with a property that never, you know, that never spells bad news for anyone.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, how it could never end horribly. Um is this a way to transition into who we're about to do?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, it it wasn't even intentional, but like kind of works.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. Um I mean, we can goop goop and gab more if we want, but I think we could save it for the end. Perfect. So this episode, while it's uh the person and the church we're gonna talk about are rather topical because the church, or I should say, the the main pastor has been in the news lately. I've I've been known, I've known about this um since my friend moved to this town. Um Wow. She is a healthcare provider there. She, I would say, is doing the Lord's work, which I have told her, uh, unlike this man. And she has been very gracious in giving her perspective as somebody who lives there and has is trying to be a member of the community that lives there, and sees the impact that this church has while trying to take over. So today we are talking about Douglas Wilson and Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. Uh, Douglas Wilson is the pastor and the founder of this church. Um, it has received international coverage for views such as advocating for a theocracy and its desire to make Moscow, Idaho, a Christian town. Um he was recently interviewed on MPR and has described himself as a Christian nationalist who wants to repeal a woman's right to vote and has defended slavery and believes homosexuality should be a crime. Among other things, uh he wears a lot of hats.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, didn't realize he wrote two books, two non or two fiction books.
SPEAKER_02It wasn't his son? It was him, I believe. I mean, I know his son is a published author. Oh.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Well, I mean, he has written a couple of books, which is pretty crazy to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he's he does a lot, um, both like in speaking and uh just he's also in his like mid-70s. So not only does he is he the the main pastor and maybe only pastor, I didn't get into that, but he's the pastor of Christchurch. He will do like uh speaking events. He also is like head of a college of sorts.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because the Christchurch has a college called New St. Andrews.
SPEAKER_02Yes, it's a private classical Christian college. When somebody describes something as classical Christian, what does that mean?
SPEAKER_03It's really hard for me to not have my little like Nope, I want to hear it haunches up because it's the same feeling I get when people say traditional American values. Okay. It's one of those like cringe things. Yes. I and like classical Christian, I don't even know what would I feel like that's not really something that gets described a lot, but I imagine it is something that falls into that category of jet like general nostalgia, like very vibes-based, but doesn't actually have a tangible place in history. But I imagine is very much like of the Billy Graham era, yeah. In a response to communism and like freaking out and how we need to have the traditional family at home for the sake of the country to not like dissipate and crumble. Yes. Um but doesn't actually like hark in any sort of theologically based, like academic type roots, very vibes-oriented.
SPEAKER_02I feel like that's pretty accurate. Um, so this new St. Andrews College was founded in 1994 by Christchurch. Unsurprisingly enough, the college offers no undergraduate majors, uh, but follows a single integrated classical liberal arts curriculum from a Christian worldview and its associates and bachelor's degrees, bachelor's degree programs.
SPEAKER_03Did you go to that uh school website? I did. Did you notice that when I don't remember which exact webpage it is, if it was the graduate school program or maybe somewhere in the undergrad area, but you it under, I think it must have been the graduate because you could select like the major for the graduate program. And it was select your sword, as in like select your graduate program. And I just think that's so it's just like cringe. I mean that's what it falls into.
SPEAKER_02We've talked about like the war and the battle metaphors that are rampant within Christianity. This is also giving like I'll get into this as an aside, but if you watch interviews with Douglas Wilson or just like read anything about him, you get the impression that this man thinks very highly of himself. I mean, he's in his mid-70s, he's still the head pastor, he's still doing a bunch of shit. Um and like wouldn't you want to retire at this point?
SPEAKER_03That is what I wonder about a lot of those folks who are still in office.
SPEAKER_02This is very akin to I'm looking at you. Yeah, I was like, I'm just waiting for that notification of his announcement of his passing so he can see his friends in hell. Like, we're all just holding our breath and waiting for that ding-ding news notification.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I I feel like that's so telling about like people and their actual perspectives of these institutions that they're a part of because Doug Wilson like founded this denomination, and I get this like sense of, you know, I want to make sure it's got its like legs and like there's roots there so that I can like essentially like trust that this God I pray to every day is going to let this thing flourish. But to like keep holding on to such a wide breadth of like power so late in this age, it's like clearly you are in it for the power.
SPEAKER_02Clearly, 100%. And I think that's the the difference between okay, let me back up a little bit. So his net worth. I didn't we didn't really look it up, um, but we did do a quick Google search before we got on this call. Um, another thing, okay. So we have the church, we have the denomination, which is C-E-R-C.
SPEAKER_03Something like that. Yeah, it's it changed its name also from when it was founded to to now.
SPEAKER_02And then he has, I think, another school, and then um also Canon Press, which is like a publishing house and it's mostly stuff from individuals from this church. I don't know, I don't have the numbers of his actual net worth, but Baptist News Global reported uh October of 2025 that Canon Press tried to buy Christianity today for $10 million.
SPEAKER_03Which Christianity Today is probably like the biggest like Christian media organization. Yeah. At least in the United States. Like I remember getting the magazine at my church growing up.
SPEAKER_02What were like the pictures like?
SPEAKER_03Uh I don't remember that clearly, but you know, it was a primary source for many people.
SPEAKER_02Was it like a text-heavy periodical, if you will?
SPEAKER_03No, it was very like magazine vibes, very like peep people. I mean, we US Weekly.
SPEAKER_02We've used them as a source for some of these episodes. Um I guess I'm not flipping through the physical magazine. I'm mostly just on their website. But yeah, it is a very reputable source. Um so that's surprising that they would have the finances. Yeah, he's got the coin. Um but we don't know what how much coin. And also to your point, right? It doesn't seem like money is really the motivating factor in why he has created this church and is taking over Moscow. And like I it is it it does feel like it's this thirst for power and this like wanting to be a prophet. It was giving okay, going back to the New St. James and hang on, New St. Andrews College, not New St. James, my bad. New St. Andrews College, um that offering no undergraduate majors is kind of giving me Kevin Zedai's School of Witchcraft and Witchery.
SPEAKER_03Okay, I did look though. They are accredited.
SPEAKER_02Okay, by what? Because like technically wasn't warrior school accredited.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, they are accredited by something that is recognized by the Department of Education. Which I did my I did my homework. Okay. So that's it's like a liberal arts degree.
SPEAKER_02But like, what does that even mean? Vibes. Okay. He did go to the University of Idaho and studied the classics.
SPEAKER_03Hmm. Isn't that literature?
SPEAKER_02Yes. He doesn't have fascinating. I want to say it was like, I should again, I did not do uh I didn't my notes are kind of all over the place. But yeah, no, it I he didn't like go to school for becoming a pastor. Yeah. He didn't go to seminary? No. Well, maybe he did afterwards. No, I don't think he did. He did get a master's degree in something.
SPEAKER_03I'm curious, like, did your friend say much about like kind of the vibes, maybe not in the day today, but just like generally of the town? Because I was spending some time on Reddit, because that's what I was like curious about of like, what are the people of is it Moscow?
SPEAKER_02It is Moscow. But it is spelled like Moscow. Like Madrasha. Like Madrasha. Um, actually, Dan and I have been there. We visited her and her husband um pre-Kids for the U.S. Wow. Wait, no. Was it pre-kids for them too? I think it was. Yes, it was. We've been there. It's very cute. It's a college town. I believe you'd have the University of Idaho is there. Um, if you follow news, that's where those students were murdered. That's yes, that's neither here nor there. Like that happens everywhere. Um, but Moscow itself is like a very cute college town, and there's a nice mix of, you know, like young college kids, uh, artsy people. Like, we saw a lot of pride flags that were there. Um, but as my friend has told me, a lot of those pride flags are are places that are saying, like, hey, we're not part of this church. And so, um, do we want to get into her experience or do a little more in why he's prominent and why he's an important person that we talk about?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah, maybe just like a why we're even bringing this up.
SPEAKER_02So he's been in the news recently. Um, there's been talk that he's a spiritual advisor to Pete Heggseth. Minnesota's own. They text. Huh? They text each other. They text. Um he, in his interview on NPR, he said he opened a DC church service because the number of Christians who adhere to his church's teachings within the Trump administration, uh, that's why he felt like he needed to have a church service there. Um, Heggseth being one of the primary followers. I believe the interviewer asked him, like, does he ever ask you advice on international and he was like, no, he doesn't. Um, I have thoughts. Right.
SPEAKER_03I might write something and he might read it. Yeah. I have thoughts.
SPEAKER_02He's like, I wasn't voted for that position. And it's like, yeah, but you win. Like, you are probably feeling a certain high being this close to power. Also, in that interview, he says, like, Kamala Harris, if Kamala Harris had won the presidency, there would have been basically zero evangelicals in the White House administration. Wilson also says, although Trump is not evangelical by any stretch, his administration is full of them. So it's not. I think it's probably safe to say we've said that he is a proud Christian nationalist. Like he doesn't care about how terrible of a person Trump is. He is just happy that there are Christian nationalists part of his administration. Like, don't even call me evangelicals at that point.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I I was kind of interested. Did you watch the interview? I assume you did.
SPEAKER_02I've seen I saw clips. I mostly read the article on the website.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Yeah. Um, I watched it and he does he presents himself in such a like calm and rational way that I could see how people are really like lulled into like what he's talking about. He bring he brought up the Constitution a lot. I don't know if that was in the article, but yeah, it was kind of interesting. I did sort of get a vibe that he doesn't really care about Trump at all. Like he's just that like I wouldn't he's not an evangelicalist. I guess he's kind like basically was like a kind of a Christian, I guess. Yeah. Um, but he seemed a lot more jazzed about just Christians being in the party, more so than Donald Trump. And I thought I just thought that was like kind of interesting because I see so much about Christians who are very into Trump. Yeah. And it does, it does feel like there is like a flavor of Doug Doug's vibe that he legitimately does want this. He wants like these Christian leaders, he like like that does feel like his end goal, just like I want Christian nationalism. Whereas like so many other figures we've talked about give the vibe of like I want money. Like 100%. He's like bread and butter is. He's kind of genuine.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. He's genuine in the fact that he's like, I want the US to be a Christian theocracy, and that non-Christians should be punished. Literally, I think he says that in the interview. Like, Christian principles dictate state authority and religion and politics, and they're tightly intertwined. There's no separation of church and state, or at least there shouldn't be.
SPEAKER_03And if I say I want a Christian nation, that doesn't mean that it's like Yeah, it's in the interview, he was like really dancing around, like, well, we would all declare that like Christ is the most important, but like not everybody has to be a Christian, but you'd have to be a Christian to work in government, and also LGBTQ people can't get married, and I won't recognize any of their rights, and then we're gonna have household voting, and everybody like nobody he's like, not everybody has to be Christian. You can like practice your faith, but like you can't do private in your home and you don't get any rights and the same access, which it's like, babe, that's discrimination, I guess.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like hey, babe. Uh that's actually against what America stood for.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was like kind of the whole deal, actually. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02No taxes and freedom of religion. Oh, yes. Um, yeah. And the right to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Um yeah. He did say in the NPR interview that non-Christians wouldn't hold public office when asked whether or not non-Christians would be allowed to vote. He said yes, probably. And then that there would be restrictions on public spaces for non-Christian activities. Yes. Uh-huh. I wonder, are they against would they be like a sect against dancing?
SPEAKER_03Ooh, definitely. I'm sure he would say it's like left up to the state. That was a lot of his defaults of like this is states. Which I guess like to his credit, right? He's a pastor. He's not a politician. And yet, my guy, if you're gonna like espouse these opinions about like we need a Christian nation, I do kind of think it's important to think through the details of it, I fear. Yeah. Like, you gotta go all the way in many respects.
SPEAKER_02I think that's where Moscow, Idaho, and what his church is doing there, and the fact that they're buying up businesses and buying up property. Um, I've that is the the testing ground. Like, do I think that Doug Wilson, first of all, he's too old, and yes, we are calling him Doug Wilson, even though I think he goes by Douglas, but like we're not respectful on this podcast of white men, especially. Um no offense to our husbands.
SPEAKER_03We're married to him, we're allowed to say whatever we want.
SPEAKER_02We're still punching up. Um like I I feel like he's trying to use Moscow as like the little town where he can be his little king. Like, do I think he has the thirst for like wanting to take over the whole United States? I think he would be overwhelmed, but I say that knowing that this man has his hands in. Many pots. He's like very busy all the time. Yeah. Did you have something you wanted to say on that, or should I get into the extra?
SPEAKER_03I do, but go for it. No, I think I should wait. It feels more like a wrap-up, like cautionary tale.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um, about like ultimately this is like sort of an important thing to pay attention to.
SPEAKER_02100%. I feel like um this Doug is like the perfect example of what we have been talking about the entire time we start, like since we've started this podcast, he's the perfect example of like what I personally am fearful of. And when we give space for these opinions of these racist Christian nationalists to take hold and like be more prominent, then that is scary and we are heading towards scary territory. Um I will get off my soapbox now. But the reason that I've been wanting to talk about this one, even before the NPR article, is because, like I said, one of my best friends is a doctor there. Her and her husband have been living there since, oh man, 2020, 2021. Um, they're part of the community. And like I said, we visited, it's very lovely. But of course, like knowing that there's a cult, I'll just call it what it is, a cult that's like taking over the town. That's terrifying. Also fascinating. But I texted her because I wanted to get her firsthand, or yeah, I wanted to get her opinion. And she goes, I could talk about this forever. Um and this goes back to um Doug Wilson saying like women shouldn't be able to do Oh, the other thing we didn't even mention. I'm sorry, I'm going off on a tangent right now. The other thing we didn't even mention was Doug is also a big proponent of one vote per household. And he'll say, like, oh no, that doesn't like I'm not saying that women can't vote. I'm just saying like it it should be like the the head of households vote. But in his eyes, like the man should be the head of the household.
SPEAKER_03And this is where it's like he's sort of reasonable and he's got that calm tone where he's like, oh well, you know, if somebody is widowed, they can vote. Or like, you know, if it's a single woman and it's her household, I think actually maybe there's like a dot dot dot there. Yeah. But like there's also a question mark about whether or not like Muslim households can vote.
SPEAKER_02Like that this is what I'm saying is like thought into his general beliefs.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yes, and it's like, buddy, if you're gonna throw some legitimately, if you're gonna throw some money at this thing, you need to actually think through these things because it's like these are people.
SPEAKER_02Like if you're gonna be a bad person, like really lean in and do your research and like come up with a better Well yes.
SPEAKER_03There's nothing more embarrassing than a half-baked idea. Sorry. No, you're not wrong. Okay. I'm just clocking every company I've ever worked for, also. Oh, 100%.
SPEAKER_02Okay. So going back to what she said, she said it is certainly unsettling to live in a town where a religious group has declared their collective goal is to take over. For me, my family, and the community we have built here, we do not feel that we are less than or need help. We are simply living our lives the way we want to together. If the role of a woman is to be a homemaker, the 90% of the delivering OB providers and pediatricians who do neonatal resuscitations in Moscow would be gone. I find it ironic that we are so integral to the health of the community yet are not wanted at the same time. Additionally, she plans to be a pillar of support for those who do not feel welcome by that church, especially the LGBTQIA plus community. There's an impressive amount of resilience in this community given the years of shaming they have endured. Recently, she uh did a neonatal resuscitation for one of the families of this church. While the baby is doing well, uh, she had to place them on respiratory support and fly them via helicopter to a NICU an hour and a half away for ongoing care. She said if we don't have these types of services available, she can only imagine how much morbidity and mortality uh they would have in their community. Her and her husband are nervous about raising their kids there. It's gonna be extra hard trying to explain the difference between Christian nationalism when it's at their doorstep and how different that is from an amazing community that church can be for people. With all that being said, I take care of numerous very sweet families who are part of the church. It's such a mixed bag of emotions when you enjoy the families yet fundamentally disagree with a large portion of their foundational beliefs. So she's I mean, she's amazing and incredible, and I'm always thinking about her every time this jabroni shows up in the news or I hear like any sort of press around Christchurch. Because she's dealing with it, and yeah, I can't imagine how disheartening that would be. Like you're trying to serve your patients, and yet they may have the beliefs that you shouldn't be doing the thing that you are called to do, I would say, called and trained to do. And they're saving your like she's saving your life, she's saving your children's lives.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, literally, she's a woman in front of them doing that. Wow. She have the names of the families available.
SPEAKER_02No. Um, I believe that would be a HIPAA violation, Maddie.
SPEAKER_03You know that. It would be. That was a test. Um I passed. No, that's but that's like it's so incredible to like I think a lot about you know the people who have to do their job even when there is something about like the mismatch of morals and values. And it's like those are the the those are like the real people, not like, you know, just like I don't know, the people who I admire the most, I guess. Are the ones that are doing their job even if they fundamentally disagree with yeah, and or and like you know, do stuff like save the life of another person? I think of I mean, I feel like I mostly see it in like corny like TV shows, but like how many LGBTQ identifying folks like take care of people like very staunch racist conservatives, like yeah.
SPEAKER_02And so yeah, and she's literally doing the Lord's work. I mean, right. Doug's writing on his little blog. Should we talk about his blog?
SPEAKER_03You'll have to uh clue me into his blog because what I was investigating was his book called Ride Sally Ride, which was about a are you familiar with this? No. A novel about a Christian man who runs his neighbor's sex bot wife named Sally through a trash compactor.
SPEAKER_02I'm sorry, what I did not find the is this is your favorite dumb fact? Is this something that I like absolutely missed?
SPEAKER_03This was in a long vice article that I found called Okay, yeah. Um yeah, Inside the Church that preaches wives need to be led with a firm hand. And I mean, there's a lot of really good information in that article about Doug and this church. But yeah, isn't that crazy?
SPEAKER_02Gross. My jaws on the floor. Also, wait, I'm sorry. It's a Christian man who does he kidnap his neighbor's wife?
SPEAKER_03He I think he kidnaps the AI sex bot wife, in quotes. Oh, oh, okay. Not a human. No. That's but still very violent. It's also it's just like that on its own is I've like shocked her beyond belief with that. And that on its own is like, okay, yeah, fuck AI kind of shit. But I think like in tandem with lots of his views be and like lack of accountability for women in his church who are raped by their husbands, very disconcerting vibes there. Um, so I don't like it at all.
SPEAKER_02He's he's written a lot of books. Oh no. Yeah, I can't believe I missed that. I'm so embarrassed. Well, you were about to um clown on the blog, which I love. Yeah, he has a blog called Blog and Moblog Theology that bites back. Um on it, he's got like numerous cartoon version portraits of himself in the style of like a political cartoon. And I wonder like, does he hire the artist for that? Does he have someone in his church that does design? Is this like a fiver thing? Maybe he draws this blog. Maybe he does. Um, this blog began, I want to say in 2004. Um he also blogs like multiple times a week. And I'm like, how do you find the time? I suppose if your wife isn't working yet, she's written books, and I think maybe some other females in his family have also written books published by Canon Press. Yes, his blog started April 1st of 2004. Oh, and it's still going to this day? It is still going to this day. What is Grayfriars Hall? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Everything just feels very ominous. It's very like Harry Potter coded in the vein of like J.K. Rowling's a turf. Like it's not cute, it's like scary, dark, and bad. Also, I think like maybe good context is like the town of Moscow is 25,000 people, and the congregants of the church are like 900 to a thousand. I also I didn't have like good data on how many buildings or properties they've bought, but I know it's a few.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It'll be like vacant buildings, they'll buy up, and then it becomes like a coffee shop, and that coffee shop is like run by members of the church. Right. Um I'm sure it's similar to the thing with like Bethel College, where Bethel College? Bethel. Yeah, Bethel. Yeah. The one that we talked about, Bethel Music. Yeah. Um, where like members of the church are like running for positions within the city council so that the church can like have a say in the I'm sure that's happening, and I feel like my friend has talked to me about that. I'm not just making that up. Maybe I am. I know that they just built like a new building that is really ugly and like has no windows. I don't know if it's a new church building. Um, but it's a bit of an eyesore. And then they have the college, whatever Black Friars or whatever it's called. Grey Fr Grey Friars Hall. I think that's part of the the college, surely. Yeah, surely. Um calling in costs. Oh, it's pastoral training. But they use images as if it's like Oxford. It's not, babe.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's not.
SPEAKER_02Sorry.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna get there and be like, where's the brick? I did see that a couple of the Christchurch um uh congregants or affiliates were like trying to run for various states of office. Office. Okay. So I wasn't off. Okay. Yeah, I think one candidate um ran for mayor and got like I think around 30% of the bid for his like mayor, mayoral run. And the two like city council candidates also lost by substantial margins. So it does seem like the town is, you know, the church is doing their work to buy stuff, but also like the people are very actively resisting against that. And yeah, I like I don't love Glenn and Doyle. Um, I there I'm always a little suspicious of white women who make a lot of money um with like positivity. Oh yeah, actually, you know what? Yeah, in general. In general, you don't like white women who have money, who make a lot of money.
SPEAKER_02It's like the the Glenn and Doyle, the Rachel Hollis's, the Brene Browns, like But like would we say Rachel Hollis is in the same camp as Brene Brown and Glenn and Doyle?
SPEAKER_03They live in the similar neighborhood in my brain. Sorry. Okay, you may disagree. I I mean I don't like Rachel Hollis lives on the the in the crazy like Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I I mean I guess she could be in like a neighboring town, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But anyway, regardless, okay. Linda Doyle said something I liked, which I think it was her, and talking about how like in like a river of change, you have to like row the boat in resistance, and everybody has to have a little paddle, and you have to kind of like do your part to like row against this river to make change, and like you have to yeah, you just gotta like pick it up and you can take a break, and that's why everybody is doing it, so we can all kind of take turns and like support each other through this process, but you do have to like do the work of resisting change, and it does sound like there are folks there that are doing that.
SPEAKER_02Yes. I mean, we saw it firsthand, yeah. And then, you know, from the account of my friend that that lives there and has chosen to live there. I mean, she moved there because they fell in love with the town, she knew she wanted to build community there, um, and now they have two two children, so they've planted the roots deep. So obviously, we're not gonna like do a deep dive into the church. I don't know if we I don't really feel like we need to. There's so many other folks that do a good job of it. There's entire websites devoted to examining this church, and uh one in particular is called Examining Moscow. And what's interesting about that one, it's on Facebook and they're still active because I was curious about that. And the reason I was so curious is because in January of 2024, Doug hired a law firm to defend himself from those who criticize him, which is super chill behavior. Um, oh yeah. So this is a ministry watch article from January of 2024 titled Doug Wilson Hires Defamation Law Firm. He claimed that uh defamations were causing real damage. I'm sure. Um yes. Oh, the C R E C is the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches, uh, which is 123 churches. He also has a network of nearly 500 schools, the Association of Classical Christian Schools. That may have been the accreditation that you were talking about. So they hired Claire Locke, a law firm specializing in defamation cases, to protect him from a steady stream of defamatory accusation and slander that are now being um circulated by professional media entities. Uh, what's interesting about Claire Locke is they've been involved in a number of high-profile defamation cases that involve Sarah Palin, Matt Lauer, and Project Veritas. They were also the co-counselor co-counsel for the Dominion Voting Systems um landmark case against Fox News and won 787.5 million in a settlement from the network over false claims of election fraud. Dang. Clearlock is a husband and wife. So, like, do they not have a problem with the woman? Right. She's she's out there working. I don't know. That's interesting. I feel like uh the the vibe I get is Clearlock loves to just like write a cease a long ass cease and desist. You can actually read it on um his blog. Oh he's posted it there, still available. That's crazy. Um, he has quite the paper trail on that blog. So if anyone's curious about learning more. So is the trial ongoing or I think it was like a cease and desist. There was no trial for this. It was just like, hey, can you stop your hurting our feelings? And then um this particular blog. Um, so this was also this also came out of like him pointing to the article that you referenced from Vice. Um there's also a book called Disobedient Woman, How a Small Group of Faithful Women Exposed Abuse Brought Down Powerful Pastors and Igniting Evangelical Reckoning. He mentioned that as something that was like, hey, don't be mean. Um, but examining Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho, which is the Facebook page that posts ongoing content um about this church. They're still going. So I I think they were like, okay, we're gonna just put like a little like legalese at the top of this Facebook page, which I can read. What does it say? I was looking at this last night. The whole bit is like Christians showing the heirs of Doug Wilson's movement. There are 11,000 followers, which is more than their church, correct? Yes, totally. Uh, other whistleblowers of Doug about Doug are Sons of Patriarchy, which is a podcast. I haven't listened to it, but it talks all about this man. Uh Doug Wilson says, Truth about Moscow, and Doug Wilson believes. And then a little asterisk on their Facebook page. It says, To the lawyers, all opinions ours. Open source docs posted. Readers may decide for themselves.
SPEAKER_03So I think that that now covers their butts. Yeah. They said we're neither cece nor de ce scene. Cease and desist. They said no.
SPEAKER_02So yeah. What um, what sort of tangents did you what other like sort of weird twists and turns did you go through?
SPEAKER_03Well, this was like my most recent tangent, as in like two hours ago, I was reading about this. But as I was kind of like researching this town, I came across another article about Battleground Washington, which is also a crazy name for a town. And apparently, in this small town in Washington, which I don't think is very far from Moscow, a Christian CEO has bought up 30 properties in this small state, including the city's paper. Um, and this is partially motivated with like a like it's the guy who owns, you know, this large manufacturing company, I believe. And his pastor is C.R. Wiley, who is friends with Doug Wilson. He has books that have been published by Wilson's Publishing House, and they have appeared on two separate, like they've appeared together on podcasts. Um I believe like the CEO of the company has also spoken at the college, uh, New St. Andrews. And like in the process of finding that, reading an article about this other sort of like, we want to make this a Christian town, like vibes, I came across the website called Newfounding.com, which is essentially a like venture capitalist organization that exists to create like in summation Christian towns, specifically in Appalachia. And if you go to their like their strategy um website, it's wait, why Appalachia?
SPEAKER_02If this is Eastern Washington and Western Idaho, where it's like Well, I I don't know if this is like the same thing.
SPEAKER_03I don't think, yeah, I don't think it's related, but I just like came across it. It was mentioned in the same article of like this is not an isolated incident. And like their whole they specifically want a Christian town. And on their website is all kinds of like buzzwords that fall into this like very radical, like way far right conservatism, like wokism, a radical victim outlier-focused ideology. We need a cultural realignment, um, to return to true politics. Um it's prior set private sector focused, exit to disrupt. Um and the vision is like creating a post globalist, post managerial, leading Chris Christendom. America is our run this through AI to like put it's possible. Yeah, it's possible. It's it's so long. This is a long like um post about their strategy. Um from 2024. And the grossest part is there's a waiting list to like join the town, a resident wait list. And this is an Appalachia? Yes. Um because I've heard of like well, I guess it's not a Christian town.
SPEAKER_02I mean Christian probably, but like white towns.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, this is called the Highland Rim Project. And that is like a project by this organization called New Founding. And some of their like partner organizations include um American Reformer, which I believe is also like sounds familiar, and I don't remember if that's because it's part of like what Doug Wilson is into or what, but it's very, like, very spooky to know that like these very creepy four white dudes and um or maybe three white dudes and two Asian men um are doing.
SPEAKER_02So if you're looking for a town to haunt, ghosts and spirits. Also, it's Appalachia. I don't I wouldn't fuck with that area personally.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean, I think they I assume that they chose that section because there are so many towns that have been like run ragged because of the way that you know the government pulled treated people when they stopped coal mining and like no longer supporting finding, you know, supporting the residents who were there, but also uh the boon and opue drugs.
SPEAKER_02Um so yeah, I wish them luck on this journey. I don't know what they're disrupting.
SPEAKER_03I don't either. It's it's just kind of gross and like very spooky to me.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And they have a podcast. Honestly, sounds like a nightmare. These are they have a podcast. Apparently, I'm looking at it. Oh yeah, here we go. Doug Wilson. He's part of it? He's he was a recent podcast guest.
SPEAKER_02Oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_03Birds of a feather, baby. Yep. Uh never fear. They also have a crypto venture capitalist as a recent. Of course they do. Grifters be grifting, baby. Yeah, so I think like that the re like that organization existing and knowing that like Moscow is not a unique situation. They get a lot of attention, rightfully so. And there are like folks that have money that do want this to happen. And so I just I think of a lot of people who respond to Trump in the same way, where it's like, oh, they say a lot of things, but they don't mean it, which is actually an insane way to go about life. Um like I think about my job where I ask people like, you know, once a week, you know, do you want to kill yourself? Like, do you want to be dead? And like I have to take that answer seriously. And it's like, we have to take what people say seriously. And it's crazy that like we go about this world thinking that like we we just get we as an individual get to decide whether that person over there is telling the truth or not. Especially like in this context of you don't fucking know what Donald Trump is gonna do. Uh you're not his close personal friend. You're a guy in the middle of fucking nowhere.
SPEAKER_02I feel like you just touched on something that more people need to hear. That we need to take words seriously, because I think to your point, people have written off a lot of what Trump says, partly because it's incoherent. Yeah. Oh my god. But like if he's saying racist shit, or if Pete Heggseth is saying racist shit, like there's a kernel of truth to that, and we should always take that seriously.
SPEAKER_03Right. I I mean, we I think we grew up as like kids who her heard the adage of when people show you who they are, believe them. Believe them. Yes. You will know the contents of their heart by the way that their the words their mouth speaks. Like that's out of the fucking Bible, babe. Clocked them. You should get that tattooed. I should put that on a t-shirt. I'm I'm sure there's some beautiful graphic designer that did that already. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02We got we've got friends of the pod that are graphic designers that could maybe throw that under T-Put it on a shirt. Yeah. Do we want to get into favorite dumb facts?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, mine is more dumb than fun, but I thought it was a silly little thing when I was looking at the school. Um, do you want to guess what the school coffee shop is called? Think like 2012 hipster coffee culture. Mustache. Close. Similar vibe. Really? No, not really, but it's called Don't lie to me. It's called Sword and Shovel.
SPEAKER_02The sword? Oh, I see, I see what you're saying. Okay. Sword and shovel, that sounds like you've killed someone and now you're bearing it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, the sword, I guess, kind of makes sense because like the you know, the website was like, choose your weapon, but shovel? I don't get that. It's giving like indie band like their opening for the head and the heart.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. No, I'm sorry I said mustache. I'm actually really embarrassed by the answer. My head just wasn't in the game. Um, I've been in the sun today, so like my brain is a little bit fried. Jealous. Yeah, sword and shovel. Uh they didn't give any sort of descriptor on the website as to why it's called that. Didn't investigate, but I could I could look quick. Does the school have like extracurriculars? Like, can you join like the school paper? Oh, I don't know. Do you think that's called like the shovel?
SPEAKER_03Maybe. Oh, they got they got a oh wait, no, that's just like buying a book. It doesn't appear that there is any sort of like this is why this is called this. I wonder how the coffee is. I'd be curious to read like the Google reviews, actually.
SPEAKER_02Also, news uh Canon Press. I did not sign up for their newsletter. They signed me up, and I got two emails from them today. How did they sign you up? I don't know.
SPEAKER_03Spooky, but I think that should be illegal. That should be illegal. You have a fun fund fact?
SPEAKER_02Um, so on his blog, he's got all sorts of things. The amount of eye rolling that you would have just clicking through this. He's got audio, he's got video, and I was like, okay, video gallery. I'm curious, what's on there? Um, there is a music video. Oh. Where he is dressed like a bigoted James Mercer playing guitar.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_02Would you like to see? Yeah, I do. Okay. Hopefully the audio works. Okay, can you see? Yes. Oh. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Okay, what what the people aren't seeing are very aggressive cuts of a man in a studio, a group of people performing in a field, and somebody doing wheel throwing pottery. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Should we finish the video? It's five minutes long. Is it worth it? I would say, um, I don't know. This came out um 12 years ago. He has aged like milk. Yeah. Like, he is definitely showing his 70-some years.
SPEAKER_03I'm looking at a picture of him now, and I kind of am like, surely he has some gender-affirming care and got like a toupee. You think this is fake care? I'm looking at a current picture of him that really is giving like toupee.
SPEAKER_02Um, what do you think of the vocals and the guitar playing? Oh, yeah, that's toupee.
SPEAKER_03Which, like, no shade. No shade. It's gender affirming care. I love the tope to Toupe Ooh, toupee queen on Instagram. Is that what we're gonna call this episode? Doug Wilson, toupee queen? I would never disparage, I would never attach her name to this this man. Oh, toupee queen, the girl. Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, she's great.
SPEAKER_02I love her vintage.
SPEAKER_03I know, I love it. It's my favorite.
SPEAKER_02Do you want any more of this, Jenny Geddis, baby? I would take one more second of it, yeah. One second. Oh, a woman? But does she speak? Oh, she's just humming. She can also all a woman can do is humm. Is that David Lynch? I don't understand what the pot throwing is about. I can take the time to figure it out.
SPEAKER_03I'm thinking it's something with like God is the potter and we are the clay.
SPEAKER_02Um but then he said he is God and you are not. It's like, well, Doug, you should listen to your own lyrics then. Totally. Agree. Um so yeah, that's my silly dumb fact. He does have a blog post about this and like how he started the band.
SPEAKER_03I love it. Happy for him. And it's just like, just stick with just stick with that. Like, why do we have to like make an entire nation? Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, like maybe just pursue your musical passion. Yes. Though I don't think he has the voice to carry a career.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I do, yeah. I mean, men just need hobbies, so well, since they're not going to war anymore.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's true. Um, all right, so uh let's go back to our new segment called What Are You Doing to treat your mind. Uh like what kind of media are you consuming as a distraction right now?
SPEAKER_03It's a good question. I was thinking about this before we joined, and finding new music has been hard for me. Um, I have been enjoying Johnny Blueskies, uh, which is Sturgis. What's his face? Simpson?
SPEAKER_02Maybe not oh no, I'm thinking of Sturgil.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, who's Sturgis? Sturgil. Sturgil Simpson. Yeah. It's like his other like project. It's not on Spotify. Um but it's kind of fun. Um fun music. And this is this sounds a little pretentious, but the Chicago Public Library recently has allowed for folks to have access to the New York Times. Oh, yeah. Which is great. And I've been playing a lot of crossword puzzles. Okay, we I'll I'll have to add you.
SPEAKER_02Oh. To what? Yeah. Then we can share scores every day. Okay. All right. I like it. I do the mini. I try to do the mini every day, but um I've been lacking the last two weeks or so because you've been traveling.
SPEAKER_03But yeah, those are the two things bringing me joy.
SPEAKER_02Um, I did see a girl on Instagram post about the reading program that you talked about last couple years ago on the pod for Chicago Public Libraries and how they're giving out new hats this year. And she's like, I I wish I didn't share this online because I don't want people to get the hats.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I um I opted not to do it this year because I don't need another hat. I have so many baseball hats, and the tote bags are only for the teens, so I'm not doing it.
SPEAKER_02But like, are they gonna question if you're a teenager?
SPEAKER_03Probably not, and I could probably get a tote bag, but my new job makes it hard to get to the library, which is actually a little devastating, but it's fine. I'm just a busy little fella.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's a good it's a good thing to be busy, yeah. That's true. I have been watching the new season of Hacks. I know I'm late. Um I belly laughed last night at an episode. So that was a pleasant a pleasant thing. Um, I'm trying to think, what else have I been doing? Just gearing up for music festivals this summer. We're going to a couple concerts coming up, which I'm pretty excited about. Love it. Yeah. So that's pretty much it on my end. Amazing. Well, stay cool, everybody. You too.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Heat wave. Yeah. Again. Yes, climate change. It doesn't exist.
SPEAKER_02Is that right? Yeah, totally. Ay, ay, yay. Well, with that, peace be with you, Maddie. And also with you. Bye.